Author Topic: Polish cavalry + Ukrainian infantry = Invincibility. Why no one saw that?  (Read 4556 times)

Bratwurst Boy

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Are you kidding me? what Ukrainians?Even if we take at it face value that silly claim that somehow Ruthnians equal Ukrainian in those times fighting had been preformed by the knights and knights in Poland evolved seamlessly into nobles and nobles equals Poles. So the answer is no!

Do you mean there had been no noble Ukrainians/Ruthenians back then?
Hmmm....I found that one:

http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?linkpath=pages\L\I\Lithuanian6Ruthenianstate.htm

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....Poland spared no effort to bring Lithuania under its control and to transform the personal union signed at Krevo into a complete fusion of the two states. To that end it exploited the lesser Lithuanian nobility, which was promised equal status with the Polish nobility. The Lithuanian aristocracy, magnates and upper nobility continued to oppose the union, which they saw as signaling the demise of the Lithuanian-Ruthenian state. In spite of strong Lithuanian opposition the union of the two states in the Polish Commonwealth was proclaimed in Lublin (1569) (see Union of Lublin). Lithuania preserved some of its autonomy, but the Ruthenian lands formerly under its control were divided. Except for parts of Podlachia and Polisia the Ukrainian lands fell under Polish rule, and virtually all the Belarusian lands remained under Lithuania. Lithuania's legal status within the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth remained unchanged until Poland was partitioned in 1772, 1793, and 1795.

So, it seems there was nobility but not given equal status to polish nobility?

SpookieUkie

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Interesting...thanks!  :)
You are welcome, BB.
As you have mentioned: catholicism vs Orthodox, serfdom vs freedom, order vs raids, simply Cossacks way of life vs Polish (the republics) way of life. Theese things created plenty of revolts.
I don't see these issues as unsurmountable. There was no reason for the people not to practice their religion, although at that time religious confrontations was a spirit of the time throughout Europe. Raids implemented by the Cossacks, of course, were more negative than positive, but at where the Cossacks were located the trade was non-existant, therefore, no much chance of earning some money; frequent kidnapping of the locals by Tatars to sell them on the slave markets in the Crimea lead to the mutual attacks/raids; the magnates lived out from the lands given out by the king and the serfs working for them - the Cossacks gained their livelihood from the raids or working as the mercenaries (as far as in France). Nevertheless, the order within the Cossack Sich was high and there were unbreakable rules - the Code, general vote on important issues of all the ranks of the Cossacks, discipline etc., which wouldn't pose such a difference to the Commonwealth's way of life. As to serfdom: the serfs, of course, suffered, but they did so everywhere. When serfdom was doubled by the religious intolerance and possibility to join the ranks of the Cossacks, then the situation started to go out of hand. All of it is just hypothetical and from my viewpoint, 400 years later...
That is some kind of nonsense! all those banners were from the Land Of Polish Crown.
These lands became part of the Crown after 1349. Before that on these territories was the Ruthenian Galicia-Volynian kingdom. The people from these regions were mostly the Ruthenians and therefore, the banners I mentioned were made of them.

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My great great-grandfather born in 1881 could as a matter of course speak the local lingo on the top of Polish, German, French and Latin.
So, what happened to you? Or the nature rests on the grand-grand-sons?
Anyway such combination was almost impossible because it meant money to pay those Cossack and they were not that reliable and there were hardly possibility of retribution if they would desert and hide in their lairs on the River Dniester.
The river were the Cossacks were located was the Dnieper, not the Dniester. And, please, show some quotes to your claims.
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That was the real crux of the matter there - why the Crown should pay money to unreliable element  even if good military when they could use that money to increase more reliable regular troops of the Crown.
That's exactly what the Crown did and was eventually eaten for breakfast. Whenever the Crown needed help, it called for the Cossacks, but when everything was fine, it tried to screw them. You can't have both for long. I don't defend every actions the Cossacks did, but I can see the possibility of some understanding between the two.
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It is simplified of course but there lay the problem - trust and accountability.
Facts on both, please?
Are you kidding me? what Ukrainians?Even if we take at it face value that silly claim that somehow Ruthnians equal Ukrainian in those times fighting had been preformed by the knights and knights in Poland evolved seamlessly into nobles and nobles equals Poles. So the answer is no!
Here is some info on the general state of the Ruthenian kingdom around 1250s:
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Under Danylo's reign, Galicia–Volhynia was one of the most powerful states in east central Europe.[9] Literature flourished, producing the Galician–Volhynian Chronicle. Demographic growth was enhanced by immigration from the west and the south, including Germans and Armenians. Commerce developed due to trade routes linking the Black Sea with Poland, Germany and the Baltic basin. Major cities, which served as important economic and cultural centers, included Lvov (where the royal seat would later be moved by Danylo's son), Vladimir-in-Volhynia, Galich, Kholm (Danylo's capital), Peremyshl, Drohiczyn and Terebovlya. Galicia–Volhynia was important enough that in 1252 Danylo was able to marry his son Roman to the heiress of the Austrian Duchy in the vain hope of securing it for his family. Another son, Shvarn, married a daughter of Mindaugas, Lithuania's first king, and briefly ruled that land from 1267–1269. At the peak of its expansion, the Galician–Volhynian state contained not only south-western Rus' lands, including Red Rus' and Black Rus', but also briefly controlled the Brodnici on the Black Sea.
It definitely shows that it wasn't some black hole in the middle of nowhere in 13th century. So, where disappeared its nobility in the 14-15th?
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Ironside

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Do you mean there had been no noble Ukrainians/Ruthenians back then?
Hmmm....I found that one:
Well, I have already explained to you that there was never such simple equation as some would like to believe.
We are talking 1410 - right? And we are talking about lands which belong to the Polish Crown - right? Why don't you take a look at the map from that year?
We are talking about knights!
What Lithuanian has anything to do with it?Grand Duchy brought their own forces with an element of Ruthenians from Smolensk, Minsk and Kiev - so what? Are you telling me they all were Ukrainians?come on!
Claims and reality do not fit together.

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These lands became part of the Crown after 1349. Before that on these territories was the Ruthenian Galicia-Volynian kingdom.
And before those lands belonged  to Poland and we can go back to about 980' when first written document tell us that Kiev (Viking in fact)ruler came over with force and took those land from Poles.
So just STFU!
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So, what happened to you?
I wasn't born and lived near Lwow and I never needed to use it except to swear back but that easy.
 
« Last Edit: A year ago by Ironside »
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SpookieUkie

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I wasn't born and lived near Lwow and I never needed to use it except to swear back but that easy.
Jan Dlugosz, whom I quoted and who said that there were 7 Ruthenain banners from Lviv, Halych, Cholm etc., was a Polish!!! chronicler born in 1415, 5 years after the battle. And he says those banners were Ruthenian. As to who was first on those lands - it is simply ridiculous. Germanic tribes where there before Poland. And the tribes that made Poland came from the regions of nowadays central Ukraine. Besides, the cities of Lviv, Halych and Chelm were built by the Ruthenian king Danylo of Halych. Living in huts there, doesn't give you the right to the territory. Build something, then claim. These lands have always had Ukrainian majority, even in the interbellum period, despite forceful settlements of foreigners. Check out the maps.

Here is some interesting fact about Halych-Volynian kingdom: 
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In 1279, Lev allied himself with king Wenceslaus II of Bohemia and invaded Poland, although his attempt to capture Kraków in 1280 ended in failure. That same year, Lev defeated Hungary and annexed part of Transcarpathia, including the city of Mukachevo. In 1292 he defeated Poland and added Lublin with surrounding areas to the territory of Galicia–Volhynia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Galicia%E2%80%93Volhynia


« Last Edit: A year ago by SpookieUkie »
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Ironside

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As expected you are full of nonsense!
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bzibzioh

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Quote from: Bratwurst Boy
Do you mean there had been no noble Ukrainians/Ruthenians back then?
Hmmm....I found that one:


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....Poland spared no effort to bring Lithuania under its control and to transform the personal union signed at Krevo into a complete fusion of the two states. To that end it exploited the lesser Lithuanian nobility, which was promised equal status with the Polish nobility. The Lithuanian aristocracy, magnates and upper nobility continued to oppose the union, which they saw as signaling the demise of the Lithuanian-Ruthenian state. In spite of strong Lithuanian opposition the union of the two states in the Polish Commonwealth was proclaimed in Lublin (1569) (see Union of Lublin). Lithuania preserved some of its autonomy, but the Ruthenian lands formerly under its control were divided. Except for parts of Podlachia and Polisia the Ukrainian lands fell under Polish rule, and virtually all the Belarusian lands remained under Lithuania. Lithuania's legal status within the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth remained unchanged until Poland was partitioned in 1772, 1793, and 1795.

So, it seems there was nobility but not given equal status to polish nobility?

You are asking about Ukrainians but quoting wiki about Lithuanians. Not the same thing  ::)

But to answer your question "So, it seems there was nobility but not given equal status to Polish nobility?"

In Union of Horodło (1413) 47 Lithuanian noble families (they needed to be Catholic to get the deal) were adopted by Polish families and granted Polish coats of arm. So yes, they were made equal to Polish nobility. Interestingly, Lithuanians considered themselves of higher status than Poles (they thought of themselves as descendants of Romans while considered Polish nobility as descendants of mere peasants). So they were doing Poles a big favor, you see ... he he he

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_Horod%C5%82o

SpookieUkie

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In Union of Horodło (1413) 47 Lithuanian noble families (they needed to be Catholic to get the deal) were adopted by Polish families and granted Polish coats of arm. So yes, they were made equal to Polish nobility.
I don't see how adoption and giving foreign coats of arms made them per se equal. In addition, the requirement to be Catholic. As always, bigotry and arrogance to the other, even more ancient customs and faiths. That's not equality if to get something you must give up your faith and adopt someone else's coat of arms to qualify.
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bzibzioh

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Still uncompromising equality fighter, eh?

Now: forget AD 2013 and think in AD 1413 realities. Might get you some answers.

Bratwurst Boy

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You are asking about Ukrainians but quoting wiki about Lithuanians. Not the same thing  ::)

Look at the website...ukrainian encyclopedia!  8)

...
But to answer your question "So, it seems there was nobility but not given equal status to Polish nobility?"

In Union of Horodło (1413) 47 Lithuanian noble families (they needed to be Catholic to get the deal) were adopted by Polish families and granted Polish coats of arm. So yes, they were made equal to Polish nobility. ...

I don't think adoption is a sign for "giving equality", quite the contrary. Not lithuanian knights were given equality but polish ones (adopted).
That's actually more a proof of being not accepted if they stayed lithuanian...

...
Interestingly, Lithuanians considered themselves of higher status than Poles (they thought of themselves as descendants of Romans while considered Polish nobility as descendants of mere peasants). ...
And seeing that every Pole and his grandmom could belong to the polish szlachta, if he only wanted to...an understandable viewpoint!
Poland didn't get the highest percentage of nobility in a european people for nothing! ;)

bzibzioh

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Quote from: Bratwurst Boy
I don't think adoption is a sign for "giving equality", quite the contrary. Not lithuanian knights were given equality but polish ones (adopted).
That's actually more a proof of being not accepted if they stayed lithuanian...

well, by the standards of the day - it was considered "equalization process" or "multiculturalism".

And remember one thing: they needed us more than we needed them; They were fighting Russian tzar for a long time and losing, they needed Polish army to help them. It was a case of being stronger together than alone (a concept the Ukrainians never grasped because they naively believed they can afford to go solo, which wasn't the case.)

Quote from: Bratwurst Boy
Poland didn't get the highest percentage of nobility in a european people for nothing! ;)

We can be ... creative and resourceful if we needed to  :D


Bratwurst Boy

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We can be ... creative and resourceful if we needed to  :D

Absolutely! *nods* 

SpookieUkie

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Now: forget AD 2013 and think in AD 1413 realities. Might get you some answers.
The idea of equality has nothing to do with the time. Either you are, or you are not. That Union of Hrodno was just saying: "You give up your faith and adopt ours, take a coat of arms of some Polish family (which, by the way invented it, maybe, 50-100 years before that) and you are EQUAL". I don't have a grain of doubt that it was a painful thing to do for those noble Lithuanian families back then, times where who you are was built on strong believes in spiritual forces, you grew up with, and belonging to your own family, your own group, clan, if you want. And it had to be given up to become "equal".
well, by the standards of the day - it was considered "equalization process" or "multiculturalism".

Well, I don't think you know what the standards were back then. Neither do I. But we can form our own opinions from our point in time. What was it? Giving the same rights and recognition to create equality between the titles of the nobles in two countries or making one side completely merge into the other, while giving away it religious and familial identity?
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It was a case of being stronger together than alone (a concept the Ukrainians never grasped because they naively believed they can afford to go solo, which wasn't the case.)
Absolutely not true. I wish it would have been the case, though. Too many times there was a hope on solving the problems reasonably. There were multiple times Polish and Ukrainian armies cooperating and usually winning. But these were the only moments of understanding. Poland wanted "equality" the same way it did for the Lithuanians and since the Orthodoxy was quite strongly installed within our society, it wasn't going to happen without bloodshed. But still even at war there was a hope to find a reasonable solution to live peacefully side by side. Just an example of hetman Chmelnycky being in Zamosc (1649) during the Cossack-Polish war, a few marching days from Warsaw, Poland lying naked in front of him after multiple defeats of this and previous years, Polish king dead and he refused to go and burn down the hell out of it. Believe me, if I was in his place, I would stop on the German border only, having only burnt grass behind me  8) That's why the Ukrainains failed then to re-establish their statehood: too much trust in working out with the supposed allies, instead of using more convincing "diplomacy". Be solo, as you said. I guess, I defeated my own topic :-[

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Ironside

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Gee Nat you know nothing you understand nothing and you have learned here nothing.
 your last post is just a nonsensical gibberish  that means nothing and have noting to do with facts.
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Bratwurst Boy

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Dismissive revilement are not helping your argumentation either, Iron.... 8)

bzibzioh

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Quote from: SpookieUkie
Quote from: bzibzioh
Now: forget AD 2013 and think in AD 1413 realities. Might get you some answers.
The idea of equality has nothing to do with the time. Either you are, or you are not.

Take your pink "equality" glasses off and smash them for good. Once a socialist - always a socialist, eh? Inequalities were written into the law of the land all over the world from ancient times. It was assumed that human beings were not merely different, but unequal in terms of their moral, political and social worth. These inequalities were deemed natural; some were born to rule, and others to be ruled.


Quote from: SpookieUkie
That Union of Hrodno was just saying: "You give up your faith and adopt ours, take a coat of arms of some Polish family (which, by the way invented it, maybe, 50-100 years before that) and you are EQUAL". I don't have a grain of doubt that it was a painful thing to do for those noble Lithuanian families back then, times where who you are was built on strong believes in spiritual forces, you grew up with, and belonging to your own family, your own group, clan, if you want. And it had to be given up to become "equal".

Wrong again. I know it goes against your core believes but ... nobody forced them to adopt Catholicism, it was their own independent decision. They choose to modernize, to adopt Western customs and integrate into Western society (which Poland represented to them). Those boyars who opted to stay Orthodox ... well, they stayed Orthodox.

Quote from: SpookieUkie
Quote from: bzibzioh
It was a case of being stronger together than alone (a concept the Ukrainians never grasped because they naively believed they can afford to go solo, which wasn't the case.)
Absolutely not true.

Ukrainian problem always was, and still is, that you can't finally decide what the hell you want, where do you want to belong: to the East or to the West. Figure that out and everything will go more smoothly for you. Constantly fighting with the neighbors and among yourself is not the way. As you may noticed.  Ukrainians always chose war and atrocities, and being the weaker side in every conflict - always lost. Ukraine should split and should've done that ages ago. Western Ukraine naturally allies with Europe whilst Eastern Ukraine sleeps with Kremlin.